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#169493 - 12/23/19 05:08 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
jryan Offline
Hardcase


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 8610
Loc: Oakton VA
 Originally Posted By: Shrike1
 Originally Posted By: Ward
I fully agree with your characterization, jmill. It appears that when someone begins to drain the proverbial swamp sumbags begin to float to the top. I am personally amazed at the current number floating about.


The scumbags floating around are all from DT's administration and are piling up in jail. His personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani will probably be next. Unless the corrupt Attorney General sticks his nose in. Talk about a scumbag.

Greg



You realize you are defending a bunch of scumbags who depend entirely on an investigation that, in all likelihood, will net more investigators than suspects, right?

Be on the right side of history.
_________________________
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” - Richard Feynman

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#169494 - 12/23/19 05:27 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Peter McKenna]
jryan Offline
Hardcase


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 8610
Loc: Oakton VA
 Originally Posted By: Peter McKenna
Well technically you didn't ask me the question, but here goes:

I agree that Obama getting caught on an open mike with that statement likely had nothing to do with foreign election interference. It apparently concerned nuclear weapons stockpile reductions (non quid pro quo). But it is difficult to suss out the actual context since he was caught on an open mike and the balance of the discussion is not available.
(etc.)



For me it has nothing to do with what Obama's hot mic moment means in reality, it is entirely about how people like Greg would read it if it were Trump on that hot mic.

They are hypocrites.

At this point what has been proven is that Russia's goal in 2016 was to sew division in the US (when is that not their goal?) and to undermine the US citizen's trust in their system of government. What they did, among other efforts, was feed Christopher Steele a bunch of nonsense about then-candidate Donald Trump that, beyond Russia's wildest dreams, wound up being the foundation of successful FISA warrant and sent a haplessly run FBI investigation on a wild goose chase against the Trump.

To this day Greg and many, many like him believe bullshit that has been proven false regarding the Trump administration, and hold against Trump the fallout of that very same disastrous investigation.

Consider what we know now...

1) George Papadopolous: Not a Russian operative
2) Carter Page: Not a Russian Operative
3) Jeff Sessions recusal: Shouldn't have ever happened, it based on false premise.
4) James Comey firing: Absolutely warranted. He should be in jail.
5) Mueller investigation: Built on a false premise that was built on a false premise that was build by the Russian government.
6) General Flynn's arrest: A travesty. He was set up by the same corrupted investigation.

And on, and on. Three years of utter bullshit that fed an anti-Trump fever that simply won't break, and Schiff has been at the center of pretty much every lie and leak connected to this whole corrupt circus.


We have half of the country and the politicians who serve them, trapped in a sunk-cost fallacy. All the evidence shows that they have been duped by Russia, but they can stop helping Russia for fear of having to address what they did.
_________________________
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” - Richard Feynman

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#169495 - 12/23/19 07:15 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: jryan]
Ward Offline
veteran


Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 1362
Thanks for the succinct summary, jryan. You nailed it. I see extreme hubris mixed with BORKS (bridge over the river Kwai syndrome) stirred in with some good old fashioned group think.
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#169496 - 12/23/19 07:51 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Ward]
Peter McKenna Offline
old hand


Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 1173
Loc: Louisiana
Have you heard the Schiff and his Intelligence Committee used focus groups to test what charges (as well as the wording of the charges) would be included in the impeachment articles? I haven't seen proof of this but it has been stated openly in Congress with no denials from Schiff.... Focus groups. That seems consistent with the surreal and circus atmosphere surrounding the impeachment. And it would mean the whole show is tailored for public consumption. Jmill hit the nail on the head in his post that this is a stepping stone in the Democrat's long game. To hobble the Government until they can impose control.

Of the two charges, only "Abuse of Power" has any chance of sticking and it is a serious charge if it has any validity. The crux of the charge is that Trump withheld foreign aid to the Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine's complicity in U.S. election interference. Never mind that Trump withheld the money only briefly. Never mind that Joe Biden likely obtained a quid pro quo from the Ukraine to fire a prosecutor looking into the BIdens' dealings with a Ukrainian power company (this obviously would be a corrupt act), or that Adam Schiff disallowed any mention of the Bidens during the impeachment hearings.

Per the Foreign Assistance Act of 1962 and the subsequent appropriations bill signed into law by Bill Clinton, dispersement of the foreign assistance funds and oversight of that dispersement is accomplished be the Executive, IAW state department policy. Actual dispersement is normally handled by the OMB and due diligence is required. Both the OMB and the State Dept. are in the executive branch of our government. For one thing, dispersement of the Ukrainian aid is dependent upon the presence and extent of corruption in their government. This is spelled out in the appropriations bill. Per some people (progressive left among others) this U.S. President is nothing more than an ATM machine for Congressional appropriations. He is required to dole out foreign aid with no questions asked whenever requested. This of course is untrue.

https://www.redstate.com/darth641/2019/1...2%80%94is-legal
_________________________
Peter McKenna

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#169498 - 12/23/19 09:30 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
ColinFraizer Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 12/15/13
Posts: 147
Loc: Indiana, USA
I think an honest, self-aware reckoning would recognize that U.S. politicians have a long history of ambivalence about "foreigners [in] our election process".

For example, it is well documented that:
- Pres. Clinton sent advisers to assist Tony Blair's "New Labour".
- Pres. Obama sent advisers to assist Benjamin Netanyahu's opponents.
- Pres. Obama's campaign explicitly removed safeguards that would have prevented overseas donors to his election campaign by credit card.

FWIW, Congress is specifically prohibited by the 1st Amendment from making laws that prevent, say, foreigners from influencing our elections through speech or publishing.

I didn't vote for Pres. Trump, but this nativist blaming of "foreign influence" is unseemly. We were faced with two deeply unattractive candidates. It is also well documented that both the Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign did all they could to advance Donald Trump over his rivals in the Republican Party primaries, in hopes that his obvious flaws would clear the way for Mrs. Clinton to ascend.

How about we join together as a country and at least acknowledge that (a) the very laws that are supposed to protect our civil liberties have been abused; and (b) that abuse was directed against Mr. Trump's campaign, not by it.

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#169499 - 12/23/19 10:05 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: jryan]
Shrike1 Online   content
veteran


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 1363
Loc: Greenville, NC
 Originally Posted By: jryan
For me it has nothing to do with what Obama's hot mic moment means in reality, it is entirely about how people like Greg would read it if it were Trump on that hot mic.

They are hypocrites.


That's very rich. Throwing the word hypocrite out at me. Every person on this board would be apoplectic if Pres. Obama had done one iota of the things your egomaniac leader DT has.

Every investigation that has been done, including the Senate bipartisan intelligence committee has come to the conclusion that yes, Russia wanted to sew discord into our 2016 election. But all of these investigations also agreed that Russia did all this to benefit trumps campaign and hurt Hillary’s and that the campaign willfully accepted the help. Hell he begged Russia to get involved in the 2016 election and mere hours after his plea that’s exactly what Russia did. His campaign sought even more help from Russia when DT Junior and several others met at Trump Tower with Russians trying to get dirt on Clinton. They shared their campaign information (sensitive internal polling data and strategy) with Russians to help them target certain states and districts.

And let’s not forget his performance in Helsinki where he threw our entire intelligence community under the bus to get closer with his puppet master Putin. And then he hides all of his notes (if he takes them or doesn't throw out our interpreter) of his meetings with the former KGB agent.

This man talks shit about war heroes and generals and dedicated FBI and CIA officials, career foreign service personnel and just the other night mocks a widow about her recently dead husband who was a World War II veteran. In his first days in office he visited the CIA and stood in front of the CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes. He stood there and gave a political speech about him and his accomplishments and grievances. The man is scum in human form.

If Obama had done any of that he would be… It’s too scary to think about. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg of what Trump has done. I haven’t even mentioned his anti-Semitism or his birtherism.

Trump, besides being a racist egomaniac narcissistic bully, is also one of the most corrupt people alive. He had to shut down his fraud of a University. He had to settle a lawsuit about his charity where he took in money for veterans of war. He used some of it to buy stuff for himself including a portrait of himself.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a30208282/trump-admit-crooked-charity-pay-2-million/

And for those Christians out there or the “family values” voters that continue to support him, the hypocrisy could not be higher. President Clinton who was chided and looked down upon by so many in the evangelical community is now looking so much better. Trump has been accused by as many, if not more, women of sexual assault and even rape (one of them being by one of his ex-wives). Maybe those Christians should read this:
https://www.axios.com/christianity-today...NyX58v0stL8fy3k

And I haven’t even gotten to what got him impeached..

Greg


Edited by Shrike1 (12/23/19 10:44 PM)
_________________________
Words can't define what I feel inside
Who needs them? -- Smashing Pumpkins "GEEK U.S.A."

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#169500 - 12/23/19 11:18 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
ColinFraizer Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 12/15/13
Posts: 147
Loc: Indiana, USA
I did not vote for Mr. Trump and actively opposed his candidacy in the primaries.
However, I think one point requires a forceful response: the intelligence services and FBI are public servants with a duty to scrupulously obey the law and protect our civil rights. It has become very clear that some of the people employed at the CIA and FBI (and, unfortunately, some members of the Obama administration) disregarded this duty.

It was Susan Rice who "unmasked" the private communications of American citizens (the CIA and FBI are not allowed to intercept our communications except with judge-approved search warrants, but sometimes their communications are intercepted while US agents eavesdrop on foreigners. Ms. Rice repeatedly revealed such communications.

We also now know that an attorney employed by the FBI intentionally altered documents submitted to the FISC to materially change (invert) their meaning to advance the FBI request for a secret search warrant. (Because the warrants are issued in secret, the FBI has a special duty not to simply represent the point of view of the government or of the FBI, but to forthrightly disclose weaknesses and mitigating points in their warrant applications. They did not.

I think these revelations cast Mr. Trump's actions in a new, more sympathetic light. He was right that the FBI and intelligence services abused the FISA process in violation of his (and our) rights.

Greg, I understand the frustration and disappointment you feel about the direction of policy under Pres. Trump. However, I think the way forward is to better understand the perspective of your countrymen and realize that it is perhaps not as foreign as you might imagine.

For example, if concerns about civil rights, privacy rights, and due process had been raised by someone a coastal liberal, would you be so quick to characterize it as an attack on "dedicated […] officials"? Did you feel that way when BLM protestors (rightly) noted that sometimes police are agents of injustice.

Having read your posts over my time on the DSF, I appreciate that you are a well-intentioned, thoughtful, and caring person, but I ask that you recognize that you—like myself and every other human being—sometimes let emotion act as a lens that distorts your view of some things.

When I look at the way my coastal/urban/university-town countrymen react to recent news, I think there is an edge of hysteria:

- A teenager is confronted by a drum-beating protestor in DC and it turned into a crusade against his "smirk" and "disrespect" for a native American. [In reality, the teen was the target, not the instigator.]
- Pres. Trump increases protections for Jewish Americans and it is decried as somehow antisemitic.
- Young men at service academies play a stupid game ["the circle game"] that American young men (in middle schools, high schools, and universities) have been playing for decades and it is taken as a symbol of "white supremacy".
- People who enter the US in violation of US law are arrested and, yes, separated from their children—just like anyone who is arrested and just like happened under Pres. Obama and prior US administration—and that is taken as a sign of unique moral rot. [I strongly favor open borders, but I'm not such a fool that I believe the country is obliged to adopt the law I favor.]

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#169501 - 12/24/19 03:22 AM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: ColinFraizer]
Shrike1 Online   content
veteran


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 1363
Loc: Greenville, NC
 Originally Posted By: ColinFraizer
We also now know that an attorney employed by the FBI intentionally altered documents submitted to the FISC to materially change (invert) their meaning to advance the FBI request for a secret search warrant. (Because the warrants are issued in secret, the FBI has a special duty not to simply represent the point of view of the government or of the FBI, but to forthrightly disclose weaknesses and mitigating points in their warrant applications. They did not.


We know this from the IG report and I have already agreed that this FBI person needs to be fired at the very least and probably prosecuted. That goes for anyone else that altered a document or did any other nefarious things in the process. This all involved one person in the case, Carter Page.

What we also know from the IG report is that the investigation into the trump campaign and Russian help was properly opened and that there was no political bias found in the officials that did so.

Knowing these things doesn’t put DT in a more sympathetic light to me. He still invited foreign help into our elections and embraced their help and sided with them over our own intelligence agencies.

 Originally Posted By: ColinFraizer
Greg, I understand the frustration and disappointment you feel about the direction of policy under Pres. Trump. However, I think the way forward is to better understand the perspective of your countrymen and realize that it is perhaps not as foreign as you might imagine.

For example, if concerns about civil rights, privacy rights, and due process had been raised by someone a coastal liberal, would you be so quick to characterize it as an attack on "dedicated […] officials"? Did you feel that way when BLM protestors (rightly) noted that sometimes police are agents of injustice.

Having read your posts over my time on the DSF, I appreciate that you are a well-intentioned, thoughtful, and caring person, but I ask that you recognize that you—like myself and every other human being—sometimes let emotion act as a lens that distorts your view of some things.

When I look at the way my coastal/urban/university-town countrymen react to recent news, I think there is an edge of hysteria:


I would turn that around and say that going forward some of my countrymen should try to understand our perspective and that they would realize the situation is way worse than they believe. From now on we are just willing to sit back and watch as a different president gets elected and picks up where DT left off, inviting more foreign adversaries into our elections just so that this new president can have an advantage over his/her opponent.

I live a couple of hours from the coast of North Carolina and there are universities all around me, one right here in Greenville. East Carolina University, home of the Pirates. But I don’t drink lattes or coffee of any kind. I don’t drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes or marijuana either. The only pills I take are to control muscle spasms and blood pressure and other things associated with my situation.

I say this because I believe you have a misconception about what I believe. I am a proud liberal on certain issues and could easily be called a moderate or conservative on others. When I see abuses of power on either side of the spectrum I am against it and want those guilty parties punished for what they did wrong. Be it rogue, hotheaded police officers violating people’s rights or wannabe police officers (George Zimmerman) taking the life of a young teenager. I am against ecoterrorist and white nationalist and radical Islamic terrorist. I thought the Bush administrations illegal warrantless wiretaps were wrong and I still think they’re wrong if they are still going on.

I also happen to think that when a president abuses his power and obstructs justice that that is wrong as well. Going back to the hypocrite label, you tell me what would have been the reaction on this forum if Pres. Obama had come close to DT’s misdeeds. I don’t remember how long you’ve been around on this forum but I’ve been here from the beginning and I can tell you it would not be pretty.

That’s one of the reasons Dan unfriended me on Facebook. Because I had the gall to ask where his criticisms of Donald Trump were. He criticized Obama relentlessly and for things that DT has done weekly.

The anti-Semitism I’m referring to from DT is when he tells American Jews that they aren’t showing enough loyalty to Israel. He’s telling them they should have dual loyalty, the exact opposite of the normal trope saying Jewish people aren’t loyal enough to America because they are from Israel. He also constantly uses the stereotype about Jews and money.

Anyway, it’s an hour away from Christmas Eve and I’m tired of this discussion. Have a Merry Christmas!

Greg
_________________________
Words can't define what I feel inside
Who needs them? -- Smashing Pumpkins "GEEK U.S.A."

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#169502 - 12/25/19 11:48 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3593
Loc: CA
That the Russians interfered in the 2016 election with ad buys for Donald Trump and against Hillary Clinton was not confirmed by this analysis of the ads in USA Today:

The Russian company charged with orchestrating a wide-ranging effort to meddle in the 2016 presidential election overwhelmingly focused its barrage of social media advertising on what is arguably America’s rawest political division: race.

The roughly 3,500 Facebook ads were created by the Russian-based Internet Research Agency, which is at the center of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s February indictment of 13 Russians and three companies seeking to influence the election.

While some ads focused on topics as banal as business promotion or Pokémon, the company consistently promoted ads designed to inflame race-related tensions. Some dealt with race directly; others dealt with issues fraught with racial and religious baggage such as ads focused on protests over policing, the debate over a wall on the U.S. border with Mexico and relationships with the Muslim community.

The company continued to hammer racial themes even after the election.

USA TODAY NETWORK reporters reviewed each of the 3,517 ads, which were released to the public this week for the first time by the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The analysis included not just the content of the ads, but also information that revealed the specific audience targeted, when the ad was posted, roughly how many views it received and how much the ad cost to post.

Among the findings:

Of the roughly 3,500 ads published this week, more than half — about 1,950 — made express references to race. Those accounted for 25 million ad impressions — a measure of how many times the spot was pulled from a server for transmission to a device.
At least 25% of the ads centered on issues involving crime and policing, often with a racial connotation. Separate ads, launched simultaneously, would stoke suspicion about how police treat black people in one ad, while another encouraged support for pro-police groups.
Divisive racial ad buys averaged about 44 per month from 2015 through the summer of 2016 before seeing a significant increase in the run-up to Election Day. Between September and November 2016, the number of race-related spots rose to 400. An additional 900 were posted after the November election through May 2017.
Only about 100 of the ads overtly mentioned support for Donald Trump or opposition to Hillary Clinton. A few dozen referenced questions about the U.S. election process and voting integrity, while a handful mentioned other candidates like Bernie Sanders, Ted Cruz or Jeb Bush.

Interactive Graphic:Explaining Russia's Facebook campaign aimed at Americans

Young Mie Kim, a University of Wisconsin-Madison researcher who published some of the first scientific analysis of social media influence campaigns during the election, said the ads show that the Russians are attempting to destabilize Western Democracy by targeting extreme identity groups.

“Effective polarization can happen when you’re promoting the idea that, ‘I like my group, but I don’t like the other group’ and pushing distance between the two extreme sides,” Kim said. “And we know the Russians targeted extremes and then came back with different negative messages that might not be aimed at converting voters, but suppressing turnout and undermining the democratic process.”
_________________________
Jim

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#169503 - 12/26/19 01:29 AM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Enright]
Shrike1 Online   content
veteran


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 1363
Loc: Greenville, NC
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/08/bip...-2016-meddling/

Exactly what the Senate intelligence report said but they also make clear the Russians were doing so to benefit Trump's campaign and hurt Hillary's.

Here's a Fox News article showing the same thing if you don't trust the first article.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/finding...ate-intel-panel

And here is a whole selection of articles and reporting:

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&...Q4dUDCAs&uact=5

Greg


Edited by Shrike1 (12/26/19 02:15 AM)
_________________________
Words can't define what I feel inside
Who needs them? -- Smashing Pumpkins "GEEK U.S.A."

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