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#169461 - 12/14/19 08:38 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
Peter McKenna Offline
old hand


Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 1167
Loc: Louisiana
The Russia are you listening remark was made during a campaign speech made in Florida. Obviously Trump thought it was funny. It was Hardly a bona fide invitation to foreign election meddling. I admit the comment was crass and stupid but that is Trump for you. That would hardly be construed as treason.

As to the Ukraine issue, there is no evidence I am aware of that Trump knew of the Hunter Biden award until just prior to his phone call.

I should correct that to say; there is no non-hearsay evidence. Since I believe there was some third hand hearsay to that effect.

It is not illegal for the President to suspend, delay, or to quash foreign aid if it is discovered that the foreign government is acting in a corrupt manner. It is entirely a Presidential prerogative.

Since the impeachment articles are such dubious charges as abuse of power and obstruction of congress it seems obvious that Schiff’s gang couldn’t prove any actual illegal behavior. Neither article is a criminal offense. Is Trump tactless, crass, a braggart, and boorish? Yes. Is it apparent that Trump would act unethically provided the act doesn't extend to illegality? Probably. But based on the Democrats’ behavior in attempting to abort his Presidency, Trump could learn lessons in unethical (and ostensibly illegal) behavior from them.


PS

I would like to add that the precedent being set by the Democrats in Congress in this so-called impeachment process should scare the crap out of every American citizen. Impeaching a sitting President because the opposing party doesn’t like the way he operates will have dire consequences on future Presidents. Especially Democrats. Everyone should be acutely aware that the damage to the separation of powers in our constitution may be irreparable. There is a growing contingent among the left that wish the constitution was disappeared or sufficiently malleable to allow any action they see fit. This may well be a turning point in our country’s history.


Edited by Peter McKenna (12/14/19 09:11 PM)
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#169462 - 12/14/19 10:29 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Peter McKenna]
Shrike1 Online   content
veteran


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 1359
Loc: Greenville, NC
I don’t buy that DT thought it was funny. He and his campaign certainly took it serious. Jr. and others meeting with Russians expecting dirt on Hillary after getting a email. Then you have the campaign giving detailed campaign strategy and targeted areas where they want help to the Russians. It may not be treasonous but it is damn sure un-American in my eyes.

DT withholding the congressional approved money is illegal. Congress has the power of the purse. A few links below that explain the law…

https://www.justsecurity.org/67489/trumps-hold-on-ukrainian-military-aid-was-illegal/

https://www.lawfareblog.com/role-omb-withholding-ukrainian-aid

https://budget.house.gov/publications/report/impoundment-control-act-1974-what-it-why-does-it-matter

As far as I am aware there does not have to be a crime for there to be an impeachment. Abuse of power & obstruction of Congress are certainly impeachable offenses.

Greg

PS

I don’t believe there has been a more unethical person to occupy the office of the president. I don’t know about learning anything from Democrats about unethical and illegal behavior, but he could sure teach a class about it at his university. Never mind, that was the definition of unethical.
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Words can't define what I feel inside
Who needs them? -- Smashing Pumpkins "GEEK U.S.A."

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#169463 - 12/14/19 10:46 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Peter McKenna]
Enright Online   content
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3582
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Peter McKenna

. . .

As to the Ukraine accusation, Trump and his administration contends that Trump merely requested the Ukrainian government to investigate possible corruption via the then-sitting-Vice President, receiving a quid pro quo by way of providing Hunter Biden a half million dollar seat on a Ukrainian board of directors, a job which Hunter Biden had no qualification or experience in to support such a placement. It is incumbent upon the U.S. executive when providing foreign assistance to ensure the recipient government is not corrupt. Its called "due-diligence". This was brought out during the impeachment hearings on C Span. Did you watch these hearings?
Schiff absolutely refused to allow any discussion of possible Biden corruption during the impeachment hearings, BTW. This allowed him to control the narrative and point away from any due diligence on Trump's part.


The following timeline that I have created perhaps suggests that any president, except possibly a Democratic one, might in the national interest of the United States, ask Ukraine to investigate the Biden matter, if only to clear the Biden name.

1. Under investigation for corruption by three countries, Ukraine, Britain, and the United States, the Burisma natural gas company and the billionaire oligarch that owns it, Mykola Zlochevsky, hires Hunter Biden as a director of Burisma on May 13, 2014. Shortly after Hunter Biden comes on the board, Burisma also hires John Kerry’s former campaign manager. This is about the same time that Joe Biden and the U.S. State Department are put in charge of billions of dollars of U.S. aid to Ukraine, a portion of it going to support natural gas development in Ukraine. It is said that the oligarch, who is also under investigation for money laundering and embezzlement of public funds, hopes that his hires, one with a connection to the Vice President, and the other to the Secretary of State, will help to shield him and his company from closer scrutiny. Perhaps he also hopes his company will get a larger share of the U.S. aid money.
2. Victor Shokin is appointed Prosecutor General of Ukraine on 10 February 2015. He vows to keep investigating Burisma to root out corruption in Ukraine.
3. Some time also in 2015, George Kent, a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, sends a message to the White House warning that “Burisma is corrupt” and Hunter Biden should not be working for it.
4. In the Fall of 2015, Joe Biden and certain EU countries begin calling for the removal of Shokin. The charge is either corruption or foot-dragging in the Burisma matter.
5. In February, 2016, Shokin sends a team of investigators to the house of the billionaire oligarch that owns Burisma. They take all his papers, impound his luxury automobile, etc.
6. Alarmed, the public relations firm defending Burisma and the oligarch from corruption allegations contacts John Kerry’s State Department. A State Department employee writes a memo titled “Burisma,” pointing out that Hunter Biden sits on the board of Burisma, and asks “Why does the U.S. government think that Burisma is corrupt?”
7. In March, 2016, Joe Biden goes to Ukraine, and one month after the raid on the oligarch's home, he demands that Ukraine fire the Prosecutor General of Ukraine for corruption. The PG is fired in a quid pro quo. Eventually a new prosecutor is hired, and the Burisma investigation ends finally some time later, finding no reason to take action against either the company or the oligarch that owns it.
6. On Oct. 9, 2019 Ukrainian Member of Parliament Andriy Derkach holds a press conference on Ukrainian national TV at which he displays documents purporting to show that Hunter Biden’s lobbying firm was paid $900,000 from Burisma Holdings. The invoice says “for lobbying Joe Biden,” says Rudy Guiliani, the president’s attorney and former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, claiming further that Joe Biden got the money.
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#169464 - 12/14/19 11:26 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
Peter McKenna Offline
old hand


Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 1167
Loc: Louisiana
 Originally Posted By: Shrike1
I don’t buy that DT thought it was funny. He and his campaign certainly took it serious. Jr. and others meeting with Russians expecting dirt on Hillary after getting a email. Then you have the campaign giving detailed campaign strategy and targeted areas where they want help to the Russians. It may not be treasonous but it is damn sure un-American in my eyes.

DT withholding the congressional approved money is illegal. Congress has the power of the purse. A few links below that explain the law…

https://www.justsecurity.org/67489/trumps-hold-on-ukrainian-military-aid-was-illegal/

https://www.lawfareblog.com/role-omb-withholding-ukrainian-aid

https://budget.house.gov/publications/report/impoundment-control-act-1974-what-it-why-does-it-matter

As far as I am aware there does not have to be a crime for there to be an impeachment. Abuse of power & obstruction of Congress are certainly impeachable offenses.

Greg

PS

I don’t believe there has been a more unethical person to occupy the office of the president. I don’t know about learning anything from Democrats about unethical and illegal behavior, but he could sure teach a class about it at his university. Never mind, that was the definition of unethical.


According to the Foreign Assistance Act foreign aid is dispersed in accordance with Secretary of State policy for reasons that include combating corruption. It is the responsibility of the President to disperse the funding per that law. What is supposed to happen is the suspension of dispersement followed by a briefing to Congress. Reading the Act, it is apparent that Blindly dispersing funds without due diligence was never the intent. Since the funds were ultimately dispersed it is a big stretch to say that what Trump did was illegal. The anti-Trump legal experts have been working overtime to draft that argument tho, just as what occurred during the hearings. I sincerely doubt Trump will be charged with violating the Foreign Assistance Act or other law associated with holding up the funds. He may provide the appearance of impropriety but he acted per the law. He obviously should have briefed Congress though.
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#169465 - 12/15/19 12:57 AM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Peter McKenna]
Shrike1 Online   content
veteran


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 1359
Loc: Greenville, NC
It's very convenient how the funds were finally dispersed a day or two after the whistleblower and congressional investigation came to light! Coincidence, I think not. But just for the record Trump did not follow the law when he stopped the funding from reaching Ukraine.

I see no reason to continue this dialogue.

Greg
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Words can't define what I feel inside
Who needs them? -- Smashing Pumpkins "GEEK U.S.A."

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#169466 - 12/15/19 04:19 AM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Shrike1]
springer2 Online   content
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1707
Loc: Temecula, CA
 Originally Posted By: Shrike1
It's very convenient how the funds were finally dispersed a day or two after the whistleblower and congressional investigation came to light! Coincidence, I think not. But just for the record Trump did not follow the law when he stopped the funding from reaching Ukraine.

I see no reason to continue this dialogue.

Greg


And we are back to the default state of the country right now.

 Originally Posted By: Little John


We can both look at the very same set of facts and come to opposite conclusions. It's as if we live in parallel, intersecting universes where we can see, hear, talk to and even touch each other... but our minds occupy completely different realms of reality.

I honestly don't know where we go from here.


Funny how everything seems to end that way nowadays. But I'm guessing it won't be very funny once the shots start to ring out.
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#169467 - 12/15/19 05:30 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: springer2]
Ward Offline
veteran


Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 1360
And what should we/can we do? Perhaps we should join Tucker Carlson in his battle against lying, pomposity, smugness and groupthink. I might add confirmation bias to the list of "likely suspects". Just a thought.
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#169468 - 12/16/19 08:59 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Ward]
jmill Offline
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5693

McCarthyism is a brand of politics that this country has roundly rejected. Schiff is practicing the same kind of politics. I agree that McCarthy was right about there being communists in our state department and in the military. I also agree that he was wrong in his approach, i.e., McCarthyism. It's a despicable practice including intimidation tactics, personal and professional smears, and blacklists, and it should be rejected by all right-thinking Americans.

But there is a mountain of evidence that McCarthy was right, from the Rosenbergs to Alger Hiss and many other cases, far more evidence than there is evidence of Russian Collusion, Russian invitation to meddle in our politics (consisting of one sarcastic joke that Trump made during a campaign speech, hardly the avenue for conducting clandestine activities, and a stupid excuse for Democrats to hide their own utter IT incompetence and Hillary Clinton's completely illegal IT activities) or obstruction of justice, all of which have no merit. Equally, there is no evidence of a quid pro quo or bribery or any other crime in Trump's Ukraine dealings, only a bunch of pompous lifelong bureaucrats telling us to ignore the transcript of the actual calls and believe their "feelings" instead.

Schiff is a liar and a fraud, and he and Pelosi and every other Democrat who voted for an impeachment "investigation" (the ultimate kangaroo court, with Schiff as the Kangaroo in Chief) are using impeachment as a political tool rather than as a legal tool. McCarthy would be proud. Their behavior is shameful and extremely dangerous to the functioning of our republic. Yes, impeachment is ALWAYS political, because a bunch of damned politicians are going to initiate it and vote on it, but that doesn't mean that the tool itself can be used for purely political reasons right from the start, and that's the sin that the Democrats have committed, the sin of attacking the foundations of our republic. From the moment Trump was elected they have been an impeachment in search of a reason. For that they must be roundly condemned and voted out of office, to serve notice to any future politicians who get the bright idea that they can remove a president by impeaching him (or her) simply because they're angry and embarrassed that they lost to him (or her), and because they know they're going to lose the next election. Once again, Democrats are demonstrating that they don't really believe in the original foundations of this republic, and that they are willing to do anything to accumulate power and control over other peoples' lives. They want to expand their hive-mindedness to every aspect of American life if they can, and they have willing accomplices in the media, both news and entertainment. They are convinced they can perfect human beings, if we will only give up our free will to the government. "This time", they tell us, "it will work, because I am smarter than everyone who came before me and tried to institute socialism." Inevitbaly, should they gain power, they inevitably do what every other socialist regime has done, which is apply ever-increasing pressure to their citizens, taking away more and more rights until finally there is nothing left but an Orwellian superstate, forever perched on the edge of disaster, held back from that final plunge into oblivion by the sinews of their enslaved population.

Here's a partial laundry list of the control mechanisms Democrats (left-wingers of all stripes) are trying to impose on us:

• Eliminate the Electoral College
• Pack the Supreme Court
• Let sixteen-year olds vote
• $100 trillion Green New Deal
• Medicare for all
• 70 plus different genders
• Taxpayer funded sex change operations
• Raise taxes
• Wealth tax
• Open borders (by decriminalizing illegal entry)
• Ban charter schools
• Abortion up to the day of birth (with taxpayer funding)
• Ban all oil and gas drilling on federal land (the US is finally a net exporter of energy after many decades in deficit)
• Shut down pipelines that currently employ thousands of people
• "Free" college (presumably by waving a magic wand to make all professors and university support staff work for free, and all new construction and maintenance to be magically free as well).
• Just forgive $1.6 trillion in student debt (there's more of that "free college!")
• More job-killing and entrepreneurial-spirit killing rules and legislation – they’ll re-institute all the red tape that Trump has cut through to unleash the current booming economy, and take us back to the era of “get used to having less” Jimmy Carter/Barack Obama
• Abandon the only functioning democracy in the Middle East, Israel

I've wandered a tad off the topic, but that's okay, because this impeachment BS is a part of the whole, the entire desperate effort to take away peoples' freedom with the force of government. Schiff is the new McCarthy, and history is not going to treat him or Pelosi kindly.

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#169488 - 12/19/19 06:43 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: jmill]
Ward Offline
veteran


Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 1360
Another way to view Schiff would be to see him as Colonel Nickolson suffering from what I have labeled as the "Bridge Over The River Kwai Syndrome". One also has to wonder, I think, whether Schiff's constituency is as shallow as he. If not, his political career is probably over.
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#169489 - 12/19/19 07:05 PM Re: Tailgunner Schiff [Re: Ward]
Peter McKenna Offline
old hand


Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 1167
Loc: Louisiana
Schiff’s Congressional district is in Los Angeles and is pretty firmly left. This is emblematic of what VDH has labeled “Coastal Politics”, the attempt of a few coastal states and their progressive left constituency to gain control of this country.





https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/11/americas-coastal-royalty-victor-davis-hanson/amp/


PS I believe the current trend indicates a paradigm adopted by the “Coastal Royalty” and their politicians that the ends justify the means. Moral behavior no longer applies.

PPS I wouldn’t be surprised if the House, under Pelosi’s wants, declines to bring the impeachment articles to the Senate floor. If they assent to a Senate trial the damage to this country, and probably the Democrats, would be substantial. An interesting test of their hubris.



Edited by Peter McKenna (12/19/19 08:51 PM)
Edit Reason: Grammatical correction
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