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#169406 - 10/31/19 02:04 PM Interesting theory on Climate change
jryan Offline
Hardcase


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 8605
Loc: Oakton VA
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/...LION-years.html

I always find it interesting when a scientific theory or discovery just makes perfect sense, the logic seems unavoidable to the point of thinking "wait, we didn't know this before?" This isn't really one of those, but it should be if you buy into the theory of CO2 driven climate.

Essentially the argument is that expanding sea ice prevents CO2 exchange at the sea surface and so, over time, deprives the atmosphere of CO2. This decline in CO2 causes a decline in global temperature which, eventually, leads to an ice age.

In a very real way, you can't believe in CO2 driven climate in warming without by default -- and the laws of physics -- believe in the reverse.

But there in lies the reason why so many catastrophists will fight tooth and nail against this theory. Such a theory posits CO2 and the savior of life on Earth. Cooling and ice ages kill more and cause more extinctions than warming, so anthropogenic CO2, through intervention in the climate cycle, creates a moderation in climate and a preservation of life rather than mass extinction.

Personally I find the study somewhat flawed and perpetuates a CO2 driven climate model that the fossil record continues to argue against. The record shows climate changes as a precursor to CO2 change, not the reverse.
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“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” - Richard Feynman

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#169407 - 10/31/19 06:21 PM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jryan]
jmill Offline
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5709
Loc: Earth

Interesting article. As you pointed out, the ideas presented make perfect sense if you buy into the idea that CO2 drives the climate rather than vice-versa.

You are also right on the money that this will be either ignored or categorically rejected by believers in the religion of climate change because it gets in the way of their actual aims, which are to completely control how other people live.

jryan, you need to put that big brain of yours and your deep knowledge of this subject to work and come up with an analogy to the belief that we can control the climate by using or not using carbon with the old snake oil salesman's idea of weather control. I know that climate and weather are not the same thing, but there has to be some congruence, doesn't there? If I went on TV today and claimed that I could control the weather I would be endlessly ridiculed. Look at how left-wingers latched onto a false report that Trump wanted to get rid of hurricanes by dropping nuclear devices into them and blowing them up. Yet these climate change fanatics are essentially claiming the same thing about climate, and a whole lot of people just nod their heads in agreement. The quickest way to kill a ridiculous idea is laughter. It's laughable that anyone thinks that they can control the climate by not driving a car, or not eating hamburgers. We need to tie the can labeled "rainmaking charlatan" to their tails and kill this dangerous, pernicious idea once and for all. Any thoughts?
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"Long is the way and hard that out of Hell leads up to light." -John Milton

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#169414 - 11/03/19 04:27 PM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jmill]
jryan Offline
Hardcase


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 8605
Loc: Oakton VA
I have often thought about that comparison in one form or another but have hit a wall, or possibly an answer, when making the connection.

The way I see it, there are essentially two kinds of snake oil salesmen: those who know they are lying and those who don't. I've considered the expected reaction in both salesmen when faced with contradictory evidence. I would assume that both types of salesmen would respond with a very similar rejection of the evidence. I think what separates the two responses, if you are trying to differentiate one from the other, is how well prepared their counterargument is. The salesman who knows he's lying will be prepared for the truth while the salesman who does believe in their product would fumble through their counterargument.

I use that base assumption to guess at who in the climate change alarmism group knows they are lying compared to those who are true believers.

I think, for instance, that James Hansen, the father of Climate Change Alarmism, is a liar because so much of his work is built around obfuscation that is it appears he knew he was hiding from criticism, while Michael Mann is a harder read because he just doesn't seem smart enough when I see him speak in public to have the capacity for obfuscation. Mann is an attention seeker who found notoriety in the theory of tree thermometers, and is such a narcissist that he can't conceive of being wrong.
_________________________
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” - Richard Feynman

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#169415 - 11/04/19 08:17 PM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jryan]
jmill Offline
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5709
Loc: Earth

There has to be a way (other than enough time passing without the earth "dying" for even the most ardent global warming fanatic to finally realize that they were wrong) to at least stop this highly dangerous cult from gaining new adherents to their religion. There was a giant hiccup in the AGW movement when all those emails were leaked a few years ago and it was discovered that so-called climate scientists were lying. I thought that might be the beginning of the end. Instead the delusionals simply doubled down on their lunacy and grimly plugged away, going after children, like that hapless, mentally unstable little Swedish girl, all to advance what is essentially a political agenda designed to give control of our lives to government bureaucrats.

Right now it's cool and fashionable to believe in AGW. DiCaprio, English royalty and other jet-setters make believing in AGW seem like all the rage, despite the hypocrisy in their personal lifestyles: private jets, chauffeured limousines, gigantic houses that consume more energy in a month than I use in ten years, mansions right on the beach despite supposedly rising oceans (Obama!), conspicuous consumption of all kinds.

It's usually really hard to pinpoint when an idea jumps the shark and begins to die, but stupid ideas eventually flame out. It's the damage that can be done in the meantime, in the name of this idiocy, that's so worrying. If I didn't have kids and grandkids I wouldn't care, I would just wait for the chagrin to set in, the embarrassment over being useful idiots to quietly murder this ridiculous AGW fear in its sleep one night, but the changes theses idiots want to make will be nigh unto impossible to undo.
_________________________
"Long is the way and hard that out of Hell leads up to light." -John Milton

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#169416 - 11/04/19 08:51 PM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jmill]
jryan Offline
Hardcase


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 8605
Loc: Oakton VA
I think they have largely lost the argument already. These theories go out with a whimper as the populations largely lose interest.

While there my be a slim majority who will still pay lip service to the presumed "climate crisis", it should be noted that when polled on what people actually demand from their governments, climate is way down on the list, if it makes it on the list at all. Few people see it as an immediate threat, which is as close to losing as they'll come.

I think somewhere in the seething mass of climate connected scientists and politicians there is a group of the liars who pushed the alarmism on the assumption that the heating trend following the LIA wouldn't last forever and they saw an immediate need to lower CO2 before the climate actually started cooling naturally.. if it starts cooling while CO2 is still rising they will officially be sunk.

There are also the other groups of alarmists seeking the new path forward with ocean acidification, or this global cooling trigger, etc. where they can push the same agenda under a new crisis.
_________________________
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” - Richard Feynman

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#169417 - 11/04/19 11:06 PM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jryan]
jmill Offline
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5709
Loc: Earth

You are probably right that they have lost the argument already, yet this country could conceivably elect a president like Bernie Sanders of Elizabeth Warren who both enthusiastically support the certifiably insane Green New Deal, which would codify climate lunacy in law. It's like the shark (AGW) has been hauled out of the water, it is on the deck of the boat and it is dying, but until it's stone dead, if you walk near it, it can still bite your foot off and cause you to bleed to death.
_________________________
"Long is the way and hard that out of Hell leads up to light." -John Milton

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#169616 - 01/15/20 01:45 PM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jmill]
ScottSA Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 05/19/06
Posts: 14320
Loc: Canada
I recently read/am reading two books: "A Short History of Progress" and "The Rational Optimist". The first is a transparently anti-capitalist project thinly disguised as a "philosophy" tract, taking the test cases of Sumer, Easter Island, and Rome as illustrative of how modern society will end in an exhaustion of resources (to be fair, he uses China as well, claiming it has inexhaustible resources and simply hasn't crashed from resource deletion, yet). Interestingly, he avoids Africa, the resource depository of the globe, but spends much time denigrating Caucasians with the usual tropes regarding conquest of the New World. It's a gloomy book with a gloomy outlook, and although I haven't yet reached the end to see the "solution" he advocates for, I really don't need to...I've read it all before, ad nauseum. Either regress to a glorious stone age, or tax ourselves into penury to make our life (Read "carbon") footprint nil.

The second book is in my opinion brilliant, and takes an entirely opposite view, pointing out the technological advances we've made and continue to make, citing the scares of yore, including the "Population bomb" that my family was profoundly bound up in, and showing how we as western civilization have advanced, conquering first nature and then progressively healing it, in the process making our own existence better. One of his most profound observations, for me, was that Louis XIV had a choice of several dozen meals each day - all prepared for him in the royal kitchens - and yet any middle class person today in an urban environment has literally hundreds of meals to choose from - all prepared in specialized restaurants serving cuisine from all over the world...far better than anything Louis could have imagined. Plus medical advances etc. etc. etc. We live better, longer lives than did the richest, most powerful man on earth a mere 3 centuries ago.

It struck me that conservatism has traditionally been seen as a pessimistic (and rightfully so) tradition sourced back to Hobbes, with a static view of humanity and a conservationist view of society...all of which is fair and apt in my opinion. And liberalism (read "progressivism" these days) is traditionally seem as avante guard, embracing every shiny new thing as wonderful ("hope and change" and all that).

But those two views are really confined to society on a sort of immediate historical level and don't really address long cycle history or the future in any substantive way.

It struck me that of late progressivism has taken a dark turn into the pessimism it so often accuses conservatism of, seeking not "change" so much as destruction of the status quo, sort of like the anarchist project of the late 19th/early 20th century. Sure it makes all sorts of noise about responsible use of the earth's resources and whatnot, but the logical conclusion - sometimes quite overt - is the destruction of capitalism and its resultant industrial society.

Conversely, conservatism has taken up the mantle of progress - a 19th century construct that's fallen into disfavour with progressives, a disfavour epitomized by little uneducated Greta and her puppeteers. Instead of advocating for artificial scarcity as do latterday progressives, conservatives argue that life can not only get better on human terms, but that we can and will, as we always have, surmount problems as they arise.


Edited by ScottSA (01/15/20 01:48 PM)
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#169724 - 03/16/20 09:09 AM Re: Interesting theory on Climate change [Re: jryan]
charlly Online   content
member


Registered: 03/05/20
Posts: 11
Loc: sydney
Is co2 have this much effect on climate change? I am so glad to see this post here. I am always curious to know about science things especially when it comes to the environment. Recommended Reading Really thankful to you for sharing such information.
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