Home        About Dan        News        Books        Forum        Art
 
   
Page 4 of 6 « First<23456>
Topic Options
#169046 - 05/08/19 02:20 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: steele,rick]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610
 Originally Posted By: Enright
"Some attribute this supposed industriousness trait of the Chinese to Chinaís rice culture. As I understand it, to do well in rice growing you have to work 7 days a week for about 340 days a year. You canít be much of a slacker and succeed very well as a rice farmer in China."

Every farmer and rancher on the planet has to work every bit as hard as a rice farmer in China. It's not a Chinese cultural trait, it's a trait of ALL agrarian cultures. Think about all the dairymen who have to work that hard 365 days a year, because milk cows don't take vacations, or the ranchers who have cattle that need tending year round, or the corn farmers, or the wheat farmers, if rice growers work harder and longer than they do. They all have to work almost non-stop to make their farms and ranches productive. This isn't some cultural or Asian characteristic, it's a matter of necessity. America was a largely agrarian society for many years, and that produced generations of hard-working, ambitious, tough citizens. It's a shame that the family farm is disappearing because of technology and the profitability of large agricultural companies, because people who have to bust their ass physically for their daily bread usually turn out to be pretty fine citizens. We could use a lot more of them, especially now. I, as a non-farmer and consumer of the fruits of their labor, certainly appreciate their hard work and dedication.


Edited by jmill (05/08/19 02:21 PM)

Top
#169047 - 05/08/19 02:28 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3523
Loc: CA
You are certainly right, and I thought about mentioning that agricultural work is demanding across the board. I have heard however, that rice farming is the most intensive and time-consuming of all, not to mention back-breaking. Regardless, I'm just a city guy with no personal expertise in any of that stuff, except that I enjoyed eating fresh apricots grown on my Uncle Allen's farm when I was a child.
_________________________
Jim

Top
#169048 - 05/08/19 03:32 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610

Any decline in China's poverty rates cannot be considered in a vacuum. There wasn't enough economic power in China to drive the improvement of their economy because you have to have a thriving middle-class with disposable income, and China is only just beginning to develop a middle-class. Their improvement comes primarily from their engagement with the West (capitalist countries). If China had become capitalist instead of communist/socialist after WWII, they would have a much higher per capita GDP by now. Their economic efforts were stunted by their original communist economic programs. Only when they let a little capitalism into their economy did they start to flourish. Their per cap GDP starts to rise about the year 2000 (isn't that about the time they gained control of that capitalist economic dynamo Hong Kong? I wonder if that could have something to do with it). Had Mao not led the Chinese down the road to socialist hell, they would have had the opportunity to be on par with Japan, or perhaps even eclipse Japan in terms of per cap GDP. As of 2017, though, Japan had a per cap GDP of $38,430, and China had a per cap GDP of $8,827, and that's from Mr Silence's vaunted WorldBank website. China has a long way to go. They wasted decades pursuing socialist/communists follies.

Top
#169054 - 05/08/19 05:57 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
AuntJobiska Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 05/02/17
Posts: 157
Loc: USA
I'm so happy to see Lasombra weighing in so ably (and then with such wise wit!). Yes, dear JMill you have it right, too.

Enright, we are old enough to remember our mothers admonishing us to clean our plates because there were starving children in China after the Great Leap Forward turned out to involve a cliff. Remember all those Care Package commercials? I loved those as a little tyke. So I was ecstatic when my mother told me the starving children in China would love to have whatever it was on my plate that I did not want to eat when I was just shy of four years old. I tried to hand her the plate saying "on yes! I want to give it to them!" I imagined that exciting silver Care Package plane landing on our street, propellers whirling, and whisking my boxed-up plate off to those poor little Chinese kids. That would be so cool! And what a deal! Of course the pilot would the very same one as in the commercial, whisking off his goggles while taxiing up to our driveway. Kids can be so funny!

For the younger ones who cannot remember and have not studied twentieth-century China:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Great-Leap-Forward

https://www.britannica.com/event/Cultural-Revolution

https://www.britannica.com/place/China/Economic-policies

Your writing about population shift from countryside to city made me remember a grad school chum from China. Her parents both had advanced degrees and were forced from city to countryside by way of what I suppose was some sort of brutal re-education camp, to be pig farmers. (she was not happy about what happened to her parents, to put it mildly.) So I was scratching my head, thinking, was it not the other way round until recent decades? Yes it was! Eventually, even the Red Guards were hounded off to the country in their millions when they began to argue amongst themselves and proved an embarrassment.

Speaking of the Red Guards, I could not help thinking how the Khmer Rouge also whipped up the young to do much of their dirty work in Cambodia. Well, Stalin had his Komsomal and Hitler his Jugend. Typical socialist tactic, I suppose.

Top
#169056 - 05/08/19 06:36 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: AuntJobiska]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610

Auntie, in 1968 Anthony Quinn starred in a movie called THE SHOES OF THE FISHERMAN. A Russian bishop is released from the Soviet Gulag, and allowed to go to Rome. He get's elected pope. His big problem in the movie is the imminent invasion of Russia by tens of millions of starving Chinese, who have no other option but to go north to find food, which will precipitate a nuclear war between China and Russia.

This premise seems ludicrous today. It wasn't in 1968. That's a smidge more than 50 years ago, and it tells you how China was perceived by the world then. There was more than a grain of truth in that scenario at the time. Twenty-three years after the end of WWII, the Chinese were having trouble feeding themselves. So much for socialism.

Top
#169057 - 05/08/19 10:42 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: AuntJobiska]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3523
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: AuntJobiska
I'm so happy to see Lasombra weighing in so ably (and then with such wise wit!). Yes, dear JMill you have it right, too.

Enright, we are old enough to remember our mothers admonishing us to clean our plates because there were starving children in China after the Great Leap Forward turned out to involve a cliff. Remember all those Care Package commercials? I loved those as a little tyke. So I was ecstatic when my mother told me the starving children in China would love to have whatever it was on my plate that I did not want to eat when I was just shy of four years old. I tried to hand her the plate saying "on yes! I want to give it to them!" I imagined that exciting silver Care Package plane landing on our street, propellers whirling, and whisking my boxed-up plate off to those poor little Chinese kids. That would be so cool! And what a deal! Of course the pilot would the very same one as in the commercial, whisking off his goggles while taxiing up to our driveway. Kids can be so funny!

For the younger ones who cannot remember and have not studied twentieth-century China:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Great-Leap-Forward

https://www.britannica.com/event/Cultural-Revolution

https://www.britannica.com/place/China/Economic-policies

Your writing about population shift from countryside to city made me remember a grad school chum from China. Her parents both had advanced degrees and were forced from city to countryside by way of what I suppose was some sort of brutal re-education camp, to be pig farmers. (she was not happy about what happened to her parents, to put it mildly.) So I was scratching my head, thinking, was it not the other way round until recent decades? Yes it was! Eventually, even the Red Guards were hounded off to the country in their millions when they began to argue amongst themselves and proved an embarrassment.

Speaking of the Red Guards, I could not help thinking how the Khmer Rouge also whipped up the young to do much of their dirty work in Cambodia. Well, Stalin had his Komsomal and Hitler his Jugend. Typical socialist tactic, I suppose.


Hey Auntie, good to see you posting. Actually in my childhood, it was the starving people of India, and the hungry children of Europe in the aftermath of World War 2 that were the topics at our dining-room table.

I'm thinking that the flows you were talking about above in China were likely proportional rather than either-or. In 1960, in the midst of the Great Leap Forward, there were 106 million people living in the cities, providing plenty of bodies to be shipped off to the countryside if desired. At the same time, other people from the rural areas were migrating to the cities, so that by 1970, in the midst of the Cultural Revolution, there were 142 million people living in the cities. (Meanwhile there were 560 million people living in the countryside in 1960, and 670 million living in the countryside in 1970.)

Recently, just in one decade, 2007 to 2017, over 200 million Chinese have moved to the cities, a sure recipe for explosive economic growth.
_________________________
Jim

Top
#169058 - 05/09/19 03:33 AM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: Enright]
ScottSA Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 05/19/06
Posts: 14308
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: Enright
Recently, just in one decade, 2007 to 2017, over 200 million Chinese have moved to the cities, a sure recipe for explosive economic growth.
Wait. Huh? People move to cities BECAUSE of explosive economic growth. When that growth slows down or dies, the cities explode. 10% growth has fallen steadily to a twenty year low now, and still collapsing. That's not sure anything, because history never really repeats, but it rarely bodes well and often ends in chaos. Especially when it's being economically pressured externally.
_________________________
If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what is an empty desk a sign?~Albert Einstein

Top
#169059 - 05/09/19 03:44 AM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: ScottSA]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610

Does anyone know if China, should it collapse as the old USSR did, will come apart into separate entities? I can't seem to find much online that has any solidity to its speculations about that possibility.

Top
#169060 - 05/09/19 05:10 AM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
Silence Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 30
Loc: South Africa
It's funny to watch Americans trash China, even as China has started taking over world leadership. China holds America's balls in its hands. And it hurts.
Top
#169063 - 05/09/19 01:58 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: Silence]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610

Silence, that was a stupid remark. China hasn't got anybody by the balls except its own people and others dumb enough to buy into the claptrap that China is just on the edge of taking over the world. China has some pretty big problems, and where they shake out no knows.

Top
Page 4 of 6 « First<23456>


Hop to:

Generated in 0.031 seconds in which 0.006 seconds were spent on a total of 13 queries. Zlib compression disabled.

Home    Books    Curtis on Publishing   Previews    Bio    Bibliography    Snapshots     Foreign News    Reader's Forum    Art