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#169023 - 05/06/19 12:17 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: Silence]
ScottSA Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 05/19/06
Posts: 14306
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: Silence
 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
 Originally Posted By: Silence
if we want to stay honest, we have to give them that.

No we don't. It's simply not true.


Well, last time I checked, that's what the World Bank says

http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/CHN
That means very little.
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#169024 - 05/06/19 01:12 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: ScottSA]
Enright Offline
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Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: CA
Silence said, "Isn't state capitalism coined to describe China? The most efficient poverty-eliminating economic system ever created?"

The term "state capitalism" was first coined in Europe in 1898 to describe theoretical Marxist systems, and had nothing to do with China (1898).

As an argument for modern China's economic system, the "poverty-eliminating" attribute ascribed to it is less impressive when we learn that poverty all over the world (as defined at $1.90 a day, upper limit) has been declining at a phenomenal rate in the 21st Century. Take India, which had a poverty rate of 31% in 2009, declining to 21% by 2011, just two years later. Three or four more years, and its poverty rate was around 13%. India still has problems of course, but China's experience of a sharp decline is not unique.

If state-capitalist systems are more efficient, why was it that China's poverty level was still 66% in 1990, after decades of state-enterprise economics under Mao and others? This was China, with one of the most intelligent and productive workforces in the world.

In 1933 Korzybski predicted that state-capitalist economies like that of the Soviet Union would eventually be replaced by international capitalism. With that in mind, we could attribute China's current success to allowing international companies to come in to the country and produce foreign goods in China, and other measures that inseparably linked China with the international capitalist system.

All of this is not to say that certain subsidized state enterprises may not have given certain advantages to China (I wouldn't know either way). But I would doubt that such are more efficient, per se. I've read that these Chinese state companies are less profitable than public corporations, for one thing.
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Jim

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#169025 - 05/06/19 01:50 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: Silence]
AuntJobiska Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 05/01/17
Posts: 143
Loc: USA
Comparing what to what? If course when one eases up on pure communism (particularly when following a cataclysmic event like Mao's Cultural Revolution) there is bound to be a dramatic improvement. Apples, oranges.
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#169026 - 05/06/19 01:56 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: Enright]
jmill Online   content
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5581
You've hit the nail on the head, Enright. It isn't any kind of communist/socialist/"state capitalist" (c/s/sc) system that is causing reduced rates of poverty around the world. It's the interface of those systems with capitalist systems that is enriching the c/s/sc countries. It is excess wealth that capitalist countries are capable of producing that reduces poverty rates. Excess wealth is not a technical term (that I am aware of), just my way of talking about the incredible efficiency and productivity of capitalist systems, eclipsing s/c/sc economies by a mile. C/s/sc systems simply don't produce enough excess wealth to reduce poverty rates. In a sense, you could say that s/c/sc systems 'parasitize" capitalist systems.

Edited by jmill (05/06/19 01:57 PM)

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#169027 - 05/06/19 01:59 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: AuntJobiska]
AuntJobiska Offline
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Enright, I suspect what we currently have here is "state capitalism" (aka "crony capitalism"!) by your definition. Endless snarls of regulations and bloated beauracracy, coupled with the legal system favoring huge corporations over small businesses and individual entrepreneurs and artists/creators/etc. Time for a little trust busting?
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#169030 - 05/06/19 02:43 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
AuntJobiska Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 05/01/17
Posts: 143
Loc: USA
Oh, sorry, Jmill! I was typing at the same time you were posting and did not see this before. Oops!

All you old-timers here know how much I hate communism. For any new folks, I should explain i have lived in several newly post-communist countries and seen first-hand its lasting corrupting influence. Man, I hate it! So much injustice, so much insane waste, so much unnecessary sickness and death, so much wanton destruction, so much ugliness (seen their architechture?) and so much despair. On the flip side, the victims manage to create a rich body of truly funny humor and excel in that most noble form of humor -- irony. They are masters of it. This is a great testament to the human spirit, no?

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#169031 - 05/06/19 03:45 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: AuntJobiska]
jmill Online   content
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5581

No sweat, Auntie. I don't know about trust busting, but I would like to see someone put the kibosh on crony capitalism, Democrat or Republican. It's unfair, and it distorts the economics of certain markets.

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#169032 - 05/06/19 03:57 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: jmill
You've hit the nail on the head, Enright. It isn't any kind of communist/socialist/"state capitalist" (c/s/sc) system that is causing reduced rates of poverty around the world. It's the interface of those systems with capitalist systems that is enriching the c/s/sc countries. It is excess wealth that capitalist countries are capable of producing that reduces poverty rates. Excess wealth is not a technical term (that I am aware of), just my way of talking about the incredible efficiency and productivity of capitalist systems, eclipsing s/c/sc economies by a mile. C/s/sc systems simply don't produce enough excess wealth to reduce poverty rates. In a sense, you could say that s/c/sc systems 'parasitize" capitalist systems.


By accounting generally for what is happening in so many countries with regard to falling poverty rates, that makes sense to me.
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Jim

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#169033 - 05/06/19 05:02 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: Enright]
jmill Online   content
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5581

To bolster this idea on why poverty rates are declining, even in socialist and communist countries (albeit at a much slower rate in those kinds of states) try a thought experiment: pretend ALL economies on the globe are socialist/communist/"state capitalist". Have you seen any indications that any economies of those types are capable of powering the world's economic engine to the same degree that capitalism has? No. They have all failed where they have been tried, particularly if they remained insular. Conversely, s/c/sc economies have benefited when they have stepped out into the capitalist market with some sort of concessions to the realities of economics. A world of nothing but socialist economies would fail as surely as the planned economy of the old Soviet Union failed.

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#169034 - 05/06/19 08:35 PM Re: THESE are the most telling failures of socialism [Re: jmill]
AuntJobiska Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 05/01/17
Posts: 143
Loc: USA
In other words, a rising tide floats all boats?
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