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#168957 - 04/17/19 06:35 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: ColinFraizer]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610

Little Alice don't know nothin' 'bout no "farcaster"!

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#168958 - 04/17/19 06:38 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: jmill]
ColinFraizer Offline
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Registered: 12/15/13
Posts: 97
Loc: Indiana, USA
Cross-posted to the Lewis Carroll Forum. ;-)
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#168966 - 04/18/19 04:06 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: ColinFraizer]
AuntJobiska Offline
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Registered: 05/02/17
Posts: 157
Loc: USA
WelL, this thread has devolved into fun (much appreciated, amigos, thank you!), but not yet to food. So I hereby reserve my place to revisit it when time allows (armed with recipes of course).
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#168968 - 04/18/19 04:52 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: AuntJobiska]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5610

If you're bringing the enchiladas, I'm there!

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#168969 - 04/18/19 11:01 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: jmill]
Ward Offline
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Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 1351
Boys and girls are different from each other. DUH. I highly recommend THE DIVERSITY DELUSION by Heather MacDonald. AND, I'm excited by the return of some well know scholars and rational minds like Jobiska etc. etc. You always, when you show up, make my day.
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#168970 - 04/19/19 02:43 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: Ward]
Enright Offline
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Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3523
Loc: CA
OK Ward, you convinced me. I've been debating whether to buy that book for months.
_________________________
Jim

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#168977 - 04/22/19 04:58 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: justin]
jryan Offline
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Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 8585
Loc: Oakton VA
 Originally Posted By: justin
I don't think many people are arguing that the 'sex' is the same between males and females. genitals being kind of awkward to deny the existence of...

but 'gender' is a construct in the sense that it basically amounts to presentation, and people have the liberty and freedom to dress, act, talk or do whatever they want, regardless of what gender their clothes, actions or words are coded to.

coming back to the body and the idea of sex, it's important to remember that humans come in a wide variety of configurations... there are men with skeletons that look like a woman's. some women have Y chromosomes and never show it. much of the time, we will never truly know the configuration, but we can be assured that God intended for the human body to possess an immense capacity for flexibility in not only body... but in mind as well ;\)


The problem is that the transgender movement has gone well past the "gender is presentation" and straight into Gender=Sex. You don't get to ex-male athletes dominating female sports without ignoring the line between sex and gender.
_________________________
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” - Richard Feynman

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#168987 - 04/25/19 06:36 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: Ward]
AuntJobiska Offline
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Registered: 05/02/17
Posts: 157
Loc: USA
Hi Ward! So good to see you -- and my other faves here of course! I do not claim to be a scholar, ya know, blushing here, but so kind of you. I have a theory or two as to how we got to this crazy place, but in the meantime, before I go into those and probably embarrass myself, I have a little question.

Now that I am getting so old (aar har!), I have some trouble remembering exactly, but it seems to me that "gender" was originally a grammar term, then borrowed by the sociologists and cultural anthropologists for "gender roles" -- which makes good sense and seems appropriate to me.

But. Ha! There's that "but"! But nowadays the general public (rarely among them being Real Sociologists or Cultural Anthropologists, of course) appears to be confusing (or rather conflating?) gender and gender roles -- as in believing gender is something innate rather than a cultural construct (gender as
cultural construct would actually be a gender role, folks), while it is sex (right there in your DNA, as in XX or XY, y'all) that is innate and immutable.

Do I have this right, or am I remembering it all wrong, Ward? You are the true scholar when it comes to this.

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#168988 - 04/25/19 09:18 PM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: AuntJobiska]
Ward Offline
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Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 1351
You got it exactly correct Jobiska. Your point was the same that I attempted to make on day one of THE SOCIOLGY OF GENDER ROLES class. Currently I'm trying to understand the whole "identity" issue/conundrum. It's hard to understand how silly things have become in such a short period of time (and to think that I used to teach Social Change as well). Glad I'm retired. This forum continues to help in my post teaching education. I'm grateful that you and others are still here.

Edited by Ward (04/25/19 11:52 PM)

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#168989 - 04/26/19 01:38 AM Re: Boys and girls ARE born different from each other [Re: Ward]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3523
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: Ward
You got it exactly correct Jobiska. That point was in my first days lecture when I taught THE SOCIOLGY OF GENDER ROLES. Currently I'm trying to understand the whole "identity" issue/conundrum. It's hard to understand how silly things became in such a short period of time (and to think that I used to teach Social Change as well). Glad I'm retired.

Ward, just some thoughts: Auntie seems right that the first meaning of gender is its meaning in grammar. It's proximate meaning appears to be sex, having to do with the biological classifications of the sexes. This meaning for the term is very old, the first recorded use going back to the 14th Century. So basically the term has always meant sex. Here are some examples: The Rondale Synonym Finder (1978) lists "sex" as its first synonym for "gender"; the Random House College Dictionary (1980) defines gender as sex: "the female sex"; the current American Heritage Dictionary defines gender firstly as "Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions; sex."

In addition to other meanings, the multi-volume Oxford English Dictionary (1989) lists an alternative meaning for gender: "In mod. (esp. feminist use) a euphemism for the sex of a human being, often intended to emphasize the social and cultural, as opposed to the biological, distinctions between the sexes."

The first citation of this meaning comes from Alex Comfort's Sex in Society in 1963: "The gender role learned by the age of two years is for most individuals almost irreversible, even if it runs counter to the physical sex of the subject."

So there you have the "gender role" meaning of “gender” that Auntie and you have talked about, if I understand you both correctly.

There might not be anything wrong with introducing an additional meaning for “gender,” as that sort of thing happens all the time with words. But the attitude of many seems to be not, “This is what I mean when I use the term,” or “In this context, let’s look at gender this way,” but rather, “This way of defining gender is what ‘gender’ is.” And if you disagree, you are simply ignorant about what the term means or the research that backs it, or are xenophobic or something.

The first recorded use of "gay" to mean "homosexual" was in 1935, according to the OED. Imagine if someone had argued to the effect that that way of defining gay is what "gay" is, nullifying its other meanings. Something like that seems to be happening politically with "gender."

Problems could arise with saying that gender is different from sex, if there still remain times when "gender" is needed to represent sex, even by the people who say the two are different.

"Gender role," which seems a perfect solution, was probably rejected in favor of "gender" alone because "role" implied play-acting to some, and so we have the current difficulties.
_________________________
Jim

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