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#168830 - 03/01/19 10:01 AM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: TheExpanseFan]
ScottSA Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 05/19/06
Posts: 14306
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: TheExpanseFan
It's not like we're in the middle of a mass extinction or like there has ever been a new deal successfully implemented to take the USA out of a catastrophic situation.

Or is it?


I assume you believe we're in the middle of a mass extinction? Any evidence of that? I ask, because usually extinctions involve a decline in the target population and so far, well, we seem to be going in the other direction. Yes, yes, I know the world is going to end in fiery climate change apocalypse and all that, but in the meantime...
_________________________
If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what is an empty desk a sign?~Albert Einstein

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#168833 - 03/02/19 02:10 AM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: ScottSA]
TheExpanseFan Offline
member


Registered: 03/01/19
Posts: 7
Loc: South Africa
 Originally Posted By: ScottSA

I assume you believe we're in the middle of a mass extinction?

It's not a belief, it's a fact.


 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
Any evidence of that?

It's all over. Look up ocean dead zones, insect population statistics, wildlife population statistics, fish population statistics, coral reefs statistics.


 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
I ask, because usually extinctions involve a decline in the target population and so far, well, we seem to be going in the other direction.

I am not talking about human life extinction. Which may well come though, if nothing is done about it.


 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
Yes, yes, I know the world is going to end in fiery climate change apocalypse and all that, but in the meantime...


You are conflating the issues of climate change and that of the sixth mass extinction.

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#168835 - 03/02/19 11:03 AM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: TheExpanseFan]
jmill Online   content
Full Shrike


Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 5581
Climate change is not, and has never been an issue. We can do nothing about climate change. The climate of the earth has been changing constantly from day one: from ice ages to tropical ages, the earth's climate has pendulumed back and forth, starting long before the appearance of man and continuing to this day.

It is anthropogenic global warming (AGW) that has been posited by some, primarily left-wingers, that is the bone of contention. The term "climate change" is what has replaced anthropogenic global warming, but that's just misdirection, an attempt to distance believers in AGW from the lies of the original purveyors of the AGW hypothesis. (Use the search function to see all the scandals, email and otherwise, that have dogged AGW believers on the global warming threads already hashed over for years on this forum.)

Addressing the issue of AGW, it has yet been proved to my satisfaction that our CO2 emissions are the reason for the earth warming up, if the earth indeed has warmed up (that has yet to be proved conclusively either). Also, if the earth has warmed up, in what time frame? The earth has warmed up in the past, and undoubtedly will again, so how much is due to nature, and how much is due to man?

I'm not against reducing emissions of CO2 any more than I'm against clean water, or clean air. In fact, the United States has done a great job of reducing emissions over the last thirty years. But I am most definitely against carbon taxes and cap and trade schemes that will destroy western economies, and I am even more opposed to the childishly ridiculous ideas of people like AOC, who haven't the slightest clue what they're talking about.

The bottom line is, it's not up to me or anyone who thinks as I do to change the minds of believers in AGW, because it is not us proposing dangerously drastic solutions (that, oddly enough, always end up in MORE government control of our lives) to a problem that may not even exist. It is up to the believers in AGW to prove their case, and that has yet to happen.

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#168836 - 03/02/19 12:07 PM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: jmill]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: CA
According to Scott Adams, who is doing a Climate Change discussion on his forum currently, both the NOAA climate change scientists and the chief climate change denier, someone named Heller, agree that there is no evidence that weather or climate events are getting more frequent or extreme now than they were before. I thought that was interesting. Adams did criticize Heller's argument that the USA landmass has actually gotten cooler over the last decade, for the reason that that is a local argument, but climate change is a global issue. Besides, where the warming is supposed to take place mostly is in the deep oceans and at the poles, not on the land.
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Jim

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#168837 - 03/02/19 12:44 PM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: TheExpanseFan]
ScottSA Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 05/19/06
Posts: 14306
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: TheExpanseFan
 Originally Posted By: ScottSA

I assume you believe we're in the middle of a mass extinction?

It's not a belief, it's a fact.


 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
Any evidence of that?

It's all over. Look up ocean dead zones, insect population statistics, wildlife population statistics, fish population statistics, coral reefs statistics.


 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
I ask, because usually extinctions involve a decline in the target population and so far, well, we seem to be going in the other direction.

I am not talking about human life extinction. Which may well come though, if nothing is done about it.


 Originally Posted By: ScottSA
Yes, yes, I know the world is going to end in fiery climate change apocalypse and all that, but in the meantime...


You are conflating the issues of climate change and that of the sixth mass extinction.
Extinctions of species and families happen all the time and have since the beginning of the world. Including extinctions on a scale that dwarfs anything you may characterize as "mass extinction" today. You are referencing extinctions that aren't actually extinctions, in much the same manner as people use the term "genocide" far too loosely. "[O]cean dead zones, insect population statistics, wildlife population statistics, fish population statistics, coral reefs statistics" do not constitute extinctions. Extinctions constitute the state or process of a species, family, or larger group being or becoming extinct, and none of those groups you referenced fit the bill. While extinctions happen regularly, your examples are amorphous and not descriptive of anything. It's sloppy editorializing.

The real problem here is not climate change, which has been an ongoing process since time began, or even the degree to which humans have a role in it, but rather the hair-tearing alarmism that accompanies it. Because of the convenient vehicle 'climate change' supplies for activists of all stripes, and because of the gullibility of some groups of people, all sorts of disparate (and sometimes related) agendas are hitched to the climate change wagon. It's time folks sat back and took a deep breathe.


Edited by ScottSA (03/02/19 12:45 PM)
_________________________
If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what is an empty desk a sign?~Albert Einstein

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#168838 - 03/02/19 04:02 PM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: ScottSA]
TheExpanseFan Offline
member


Registered: 03/01/19
Posts: 7
Loc: South Africa
Of course, denial.


The current rate of extinction of species is estimated at 100 to 1,000 times higher than natural background rates.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/269/5222/347

https://www.pnas.org/content/114/30/E6089.full

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2014/09/extinctions

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#168840 - 03/02/19 08:16 PM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: Enright]
ScottSA Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 05/19/06
Posts: 14306
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: TheExpanseFan
Of course, denial.


Of course, neo-inquisitorial Manichean trope.



Edited by ScottSA (03/02/19 10:33 PM)
_________________________
If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what is an empty desk a sign?~Albert Einstein

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#168841 - 03/02/19 10:32 PM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: ScottSA]
Dan Simmons Administrator Offline
CEO of the Hegemony


Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 11203
Loc: Colorado
Dan Simmons comments:

It's just my opinion, but I don't think that "It's not a belief, it's a fact" or "Of course, denial" fall within the guidelines for spirited but respectful conversation on these forums.

I was just paging through Eric Hoffer's classic THE TRUE BELIEVER recently and "It's not a belief, it's a fact" rings some familiar (if sour) bells.

And that's not a belief. It's a fact.

DS

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#168842 - 03/04/19 09:27 AM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: Dan Simmons]
Enright Offline
Super User


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: CA
According to environmental sources, in court filings in 2010 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service denied that there is an extinction crisis. So apparently there is some disagreement among the experts.
_________________________
Jim

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#169073 - 05/09/19 04:04 PM Re: There Is No Green New Deal By CHARLES C. W. COOKE [Re: Enright]
Silence Offline
enthusiast


Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 30
Loc: South Africa
One million species at risk of extinction, UN report warns


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/envir...pecies-at-risk/


 Quote:

Value nature not stuff

In order to safeguard a healthy planet, society needs to shift from a sole focus on chasing economic growth, the summary report concludes. That won’t be easy, the report acknowledges. But it could get easier if countries begin to base their economies on an understanding that nature is the foundation for development. Shifting to nature-based planning can help provide a better quality of life with far less impact.

Putting that concept into practical terms, the report says countries need to reform hundreds of billions in dollars in subsidies and incentives that are currently given to the energy, fishing, agricultural, and forestry sectors. Instead of driving additional exploitation of the world’s natural resources, those monies should be shifted to incentivize protection and restoration of nature—such as underwriting new reserves or reforestation programs, the report said.

“We need to change what we value: nature, ecosystems, social equity, not growing the GDP,” Obura said.


This reminds me a lot of what happened on Maui Covenant

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